Many of the e-mails that we get from the Church of Christ denomination web site are fairly cordial. Unfortunately, we also get quite a few that just want to argue. We have selected a few argumentative e-mails to highlight their attitude and their tactics.
This first e-mail stated:
DOES YOUR IGNORANCE OF WHAT THE CHURCH OF CHRIST BELIEVES GIVE YOU THE RIGHT TO TRASH IT ON THE INTERNET? YOU ARE SO FAR OFF THE TRUTH OF WHAT THE CHURCH OF CHRIST BELIEVES THAT I WOULDN'T KNOW WHERE TO EVEN BEGIN TO REFUTE YOUR THOUGHTS. TIME AND SPACE WOULDN'T EVEN ALLOW ME THE PLEASURE OF SETTING YOU STRAIGHT ON THE BELIEFS OF THE CHURCH OF CHRIST. REST ASSURED MY "BROTHER", GOD WILL CERTAINLY SORT THIS OUT.
His next e-mail:
You had better research again what "the church of Christ" actually does believe and why. maybe you were taught these things by somebody, but I have never heard them.
I have been a member of the body of Christ for over 30 years and have worshipped with many congregations, but have never heard the claims you present in the rag of information you have published. Should you have the intestinal fortitude to debate me point for point and make this a public debate, I stand ready to meet you there.
The CHOCD are big into debates. This particular gentlemen challenged me to a debate and I accepted. He immediately began to waffle and started asking all kinds of personal questions about where did I attend a CHOCD. I told him that was not the issue, and let's stick to the subject: The Bible. He seems bent on pressuring me for documentation regarding what CHOCD I attended, instead of dealing with the real issues. He seems to insinuate that he may not even believe I was ever a member of a CHOCD. This is called a red herring argument or a rabbit trail. It's a classic tactic to use if you can't effectively deal with the subject at hand. He is rather hard to follow at times, but he seems to believe that no one can speak about what the CHOCD believes, unless they are a current member of that denomination. He knows (from the web site) that I used to attend the Church of Christ denomination, but he insists that I provide documentation to him for some reason. He continues to infer that this issue (not knowing where I attended a CHOCD) somehow affects my credibility. We'll pick it up with his response...
Brian,
I think your full of something otherthan the truth when it comes to stating "facts" concerning the church of Christ. and it seems to me that either you have been misled , interpreted the information you heard wrong, or simply are so made up in your mind that you will not listen to information unless you skew it to fit your own beliefs.
that said, without me knowing the sources of your information and your personal history with the church of Christ, I just don't know if your telling the truth or not or purposely concealing information which might enlighten me concerning if you have a personal ax to grind.
I would think that a member of the body of Christ would have nothing to hide Brian. I know I certainly don't. If I am to speak for the church of Christ in front of the whole world Brian, then the whole world has a right to know my story. You have spoken in front of the whole world as to presenting beliefs of the church of Christ Brian, and it's fair that we have your story also.
Your credibility to present beliefs, and reasons for the beliefs, of the church of Christ is in question, at least with me Sir, and I have simply asked for information from you to establish your credibility.
I am trying to establish the basis for a debate with you...not simply your agenda. If the basis you are using for your "facts" concerning church of Christ beliefs is in error, then our debate needs to be centered on something way different.
You posted on the internet statements concerning what the church of Christ believes and some reasons for those beliefs. I SAY YOU ARE IN ERROR ABOUT THECHURCH OF CHRIST BELIEFS AND ESPECIALLY ANY OF THE REASONS FOR THE BELIEFS.
So our debate is not then about actually what the church of Christ believes, but about what you have posted on the internet that we believe. Notice that I have not yet asked you your beliefs but you have taken it upon yourself, to publicly speak of knowing mine as a member of the body of the church of Christ.
Do you now understand where I am coming from Brian?
You took it upon yourself to publicly state the beliefs of the church of Christ without being a member of the church of Christ, without the credibility to state those beliefs, without any knowledge or consent from anyone who may or may not have the stated beliefs, and most infuriating to me....in a manor that brings the church of Christ into disrepute by your lies, and lies are what I now consider your statements to be.
It is possible that you have believed lies Brian. I am not calling you a liar. In essence, you have stated that as a member of the church of Christ, I believe that everybody else is going to hell unless they are a member of the church of Christ. NOT....actually Brian what we/I believe is this....
if you are not a member of the one and only church spoken about in the scriptures of the New Testament, the one that Jesus Christ purchased with his blood, the one that he is the head of, the one that he established, the one that he told Peter that he would build, the one that was in existence on the day of Pentecost when 3000 were added to it, the one that is always spoken about as THE CHURCH, not various churches believing various things.
So as a member of the church of Christ I believe this also Brian, you are either a member of the one church written about in the New Testament scriptures or your not. God does the judging not me and not the church. Very much contrary to what you have published.
If then I believe this Brian, then your published information concerning my beliefs is a lie. you stated that the church of Christ believes that if your not a member of the church of Christ, you are going to hell. Well Brian, I am a member of the church of Christ and I don't believe that and have never, ever in my 49 years heard such a statement made by anybody and if I ever do, I promise to severely chastise them.
I'll tell you what else I believe Brian. I believe that if your published statements concerning what the church of Christ believes, were ever taken to Court, you would be made to look like an idiot unless you could establish some form of credibility to speak for the church of Christ, which I believe you can't because you don't have it, having never established any.
you published that the church of christ is basically a cult....I say that's a lie.
you published that the church of christ believes we are the only ones that are going to heaven....I say thats another lie.
you published that the church of christ can't trace their roots back past 1906.....I say thats another lie Brian
you published that the church of christ rests heavily upon the fact that we have the only Biblically correct name.....another lie.
you published that the church of Christ thinks that they have the only scriptural correct name......still another lie Brian.
you published that Max Lacudo is a church of Christ preacher.....lie Brian as even you admit that he doesn't preach church of Christ doctrine.
on and on and on you have went to present lies about what the church of Christ believes and why. As you don't even consider yourself a member of the church of Christ, it would have been much better had you asked for various beliefs from members of the church of Christ, then posted them on your site and then tried to refute those beliefs.
but then Brian, your mis- leading agenda would not be furthered would it.
if after reading this, you are still interested in a debate, pack your lunch, get out your Bible, and we will begin with the information you have already posted on the web site. I will attempt to enlighten you concerning every point you have raised and posted publicly. One at a time...point by point.
but the question is, will you consider me to be speaking for the church of Christ, and if so, will my credibility to do that be in question by you or by the potential readers of our debate.
I personally can't wait to get into scriptures with you Brian but we must have a starting point and I choose it to be what you have already posted on the web site. As I have stated, I do believe it will be easy to call your credibility to speak for the church of Christ into question.
(name withheld)
member of the church of Christ
Kalispell, Montana, 59901
Our response:
Dear (name),
First of all, stop attacking me and judging my motives. You don't know me and your angry attacks on me as a person are VERY un-Christ-like. We are dealing with what we believe and what we teach, not motives. I don't pretend to know your motives so I would appreciate it if you would stop the ad hominem attacks. You might look at our segment called THEIR TACTICS. You are using several classic tactics that won't help your cause.
Secondly, stay on the subject. Deal with one topic at a time.
Thirdly, I am a member of the Body of Christ, but I am not a member of your denomination.
And lastly, I do not have to be a current member of your organization to be able to speak about it. We also have web sites about Mormonism, but I was never a Mormon. This gets back to point #2. Pick a topic, then let's deal with it. All the peripheral garbage you are slinging is not wanted or needed.
So feel free to pick a topic, but remember, stick to the subject, no ad hominem attacks, and the Bible is our only source of Truth.
In Jesus, Brian
His Response:
The attacks on the church of Christ which youpersonally have seen fit to write and post publicly, are considered slanderous attacks.
Those I've shown your site certainly feel that way. Those who made me aware of your site certainly feel that way. I certainly feel that way also.
Now, if I considered you a brother in Christ, which I do not, then we could keep this thing between us. But in reality, I consider you to be a false teacher Sir. And since you will not bother to provide your credibility to speak for what the church of Christ believes, and you are not a member of the church of Christ, I intend to take you personally to task.
This is why I went into some detail concerning my credibility to speak to what the church of Christ believes, to have it established ! So that when you say something that the church of Christ believes, you have no credibility to be considered accurate in your statement. In effect, you are considered to not be believed by those who might be listening.
You personally attacked the church of Christ of which I am a member. You publicly posted lies and misleading information concerning what I, as a member, believe, and you personally tried your level best to discredit and make the church of Christ look foolish and cultic.
You personally, wrote the essay, so you personally made the attacks. YOU PERSONALLY ATTACKED ME SIR.
So now, what do I do about it ? Well, one thing I can do is to let you personally feel what it's like to be confronted personally. and I see I've had that effect. Next, I could bother to set you straight concerning what the church of Christ believes, but you already think you know. But in fact, you don't. What you think you know comes from a very, very small vocal percentage of the body of the church of Christ not all of us Sir, and certainly not the greatest percentage of us.
So then, if we debate and you say I (as a member of the church of Christ) believe such and such a thing, and I say that is not true, then who is to be believed if I have established my credibility and you have not ? Your case is hopeless Brian unless you first establish your credibility to speak for the Church of Christ.
You personally have said that ( I, as a member of the church of Christ) believe that the only ones going to heaven are members of the church of Christ.
I CALL YOU A LIAR SIR. I/we as a body don't believe that. Maybe some within the body do, but the majority of us don't.
Now who is to be believed Brian ? you, with no established credibility, or me having established my credibility to speak for the church of Christ because I am a member of the church of Christ and have been all my 49 years of life.
Any debate I would have with you would be centered around credibility . You might quote an individual who wrote a book, or provide someone or another of your experiences to back up one of your assertions, but I could parade a myriad of actual bodies in front of you to dispel your notions.
False teachers come and go Brian and so shall you and your organization that masquerade yourselves as angles of light.
The proof of what I say can and will be determined only with time and by God. As for the church of Christ, it has been around since the time when Jesus sat sown at the right hand of God and handed over the keys to the Kingdom and will remain forever. Oh that others wish they could say that.
Go your way Sir, you have no credibility with me to waste my time with anymore, and I believe your refusal to establish any is just a cover up for what you wish the world to not know about your past. If I am wrong about this then you have my apology.
(name withheld)
member of the Church of Christ
Kalispeell, MT.
Closing Comments:
Unfortunately, this is what happens when you accept the CHOCDs challenge to a debate. When they see that you mean business, they attack your character and claim that you are "not worth their time."
We do not accept debates lightly. They are time consuming and can be expensive, but we believe if the debate produces more light than heat, it was a success!
Not all the CHOCD e-mails are angry. Here is a sample of someone from the CHOCD who is kind, forthright, honest and sincere:
Brian,
I just finished reading all of your website on the COC being a cult. As a life-long and current member of the COC, let me tell you, you have laid out some rough stuff. But, I must say, what you have presented is, indeed, accurate. I attended Lipscomb elementary, high school, and graduated from the university. I taught many years in a COC school. My father has been, and still is, a COC minister. I and my family were very active members of a 1,400+ legalistic congregation for over 20 years. The beliefs you have printed are accurate and are taught in varying degrees in congregations all over middle Tennessee.
You are right in saying that change is being made. We left this legalist church over 2 years ago and are now members of a 1,700+ congregation that teaches love, acceptance, and the direct working of the Holy Spirit! Baptism beliefs are still taught the traditional way and musical instruments are not used, but at least you don't hear them condemned. So, we are making progress!
The arguments you use to combat the COC doctrine are valid and thought-provoking. I have been doing much study and praying on my own. Most of the scriptures and arguments you address are ones I had already wrestled with. Thank you for your insight on the verses comparing baptism to circumcision. I knew there was something important there, but couldn't see just what!
My study and journey continues. I am not yet ready to accept everything you say, but thank you for having the courage, concern, and love to say what you have said. One thing I am certain of...as you say, Legalism does kill. It squeezes the joy and love right out of the Christian life. Thank you for sharing your story. As you know, the journey out of legalism is scary and lonely. Please pray for me as a continue my journey.
May God bless you,
A grateful reader
Another Typical CHOCD E-mail
Dear Liars form Hell,
I find your comments on www.chocd.org to be totally out of sync with what those in the churches of Christ believe. Every single thing you said is a lie from the devil. Do you worship Satan or is he just a good friend of yours?
Baptism is a passive act - it is not a work; it is a command. You are baptized, you do not baptize yourself. Someone else does the work. Jesus did the work on the cross - you submit to baptism - perhaps an English class would help or a study of the New Testament Greek. Also . . . according to your own beliefs - you claim that you are the only way to heaven - so you must be a cult . . . Oh . . . don't forget - you are warping the Bible by saying that baptism has nothing to do with salvation - you need a further study in baptism. Acts 16:30 should be followed by Acts 16:33 . . . And that legalist who said you need to be baptized to be saved is that same legalist who wrote Ephesians 2:8. He was baptized too: read Acts 22:16.
You rae blind and you really just need to face reality and stop kidding yourself . . . you see, people who deny baptism's part in salvation merely are trying to make allowance in God's Word so that all of their friends and family who weren't baptized will be "okay" in their own mind. I can‘t help it if your stupid mother is rotting in hell because you told her not to get baptized!. Of course, you probably don't believe in hell, right . . . to bad - you should be very afraid of hell, because you are going to rot there for all eternity with your whole family. At least you will all be together!
Oh - and yes - the churches of Christ (denomination) had their start in the 19th century - but the church that belongs to Jesus Christ started when Christ rose from the grave . . . perhaps you need a history book you moron.
The churches of Christ do not use any extra-Biblical work to "indoctrinate" . . . just the Bible. When is the last time you read the Bible? Have you ever read the Bible - or do you not know how to read. Then again, maybe you just read versions that say what you want them to say . . . Well . . . I pray that my time was not wasted in writing all of this.
May God have pity on your damned soul at the judgment for leading so many astray.
Geronimo
The Gospel according to Maxie
Another Church of Christ preacher shows his true colors...
TO WHOMEVER AUTHORED THE WEBSITE ATTACKING THE LORD'S CHURCH:
Since you did not affix your name to your scandolous, distorted misrepresentation of the churches of Chirst, I am unable to address you as ordinarily I would. It seems to me rather cowardly to write as you did as a non-identity. But then, I somewhat understand why you chose to do so, because by your own admission you once in the past were so emotionally distraught as to attempt to take your own life. Many times people coming out of such mental trauma turn to delusional errors and forsake objective truth to bathe themselves in a "better felt than told" philosopical approach to assuage their own personal problems. While my heart goes out to you in the experience you related concerning your father, it is absolutely wrong to imply that what happened was representative of preachers in churches of Christ. Certainly not the ones I've known, and I've known hundreds! In fact, I was reared in a Christian home by godly parents, my father himself a gospel preacher. As for myself, I am a graduate of Abilene Christian University (Bible major, class of 1955), and have been preaching the gospel since June of 1954. Most all of my preacher colleagues throuigh the years have been men of profound faith, hearts filled with love, kind and gentle. I've only know but a very few that would be as calloused as the one you described who dealt wrongly with your father. Why catergorize the many for what one misguided person did?
Your Website is so filled with false accusations, misuse of Scripture, etc., it is pathetic. I truly feel sorry for you. Let me just cite two or three examples: (1) Your total misunderstanding of the context in I Cor. 12:12ff. The apostle Paul spoke of individual people being members of the body of Christ, not "denominational churches." (2) NEVER have I heard of any gospel preacher saying what you indicate we believe on I Cor. 13:10. The compete revelation from God was concluded toward the end of the first century when John received the Revelation on Patmos. That is a far cry from what you state as being commonly preached among us. (3) You are also totally wrong in accusing us of not believing the Holy Spirit is a person, one of the three in the Godhead. That is just plain NOT true! These are but brief samples of your skewed thinking. So much more could be written to lay bare your false accusations and misinterpretation of Scriptures, but I don't feel inclined to waste time on someone such as yourself who is obviously stewing in his own bitterness, and disdain for the Lord's church.
As to your eternal destiny...God is the judge of us all. But if I were you, I'd be trembling in anticipation of that day in view of the harm your Website is undobtedly doing in the minds of countless souls who will swallow down your diatribe because of lack of biblical knowledge.
In sincere interest in your soul, and the souls of the ones who read your Website,
-Maxie B. Boren, gospel preacher
Another Pharisee?
David says...
Well
aren't you special.
I can see that not only do you not know your Bible. It is plain that you never read from one.
Also, I can tell from your writing that you have not spent much time in a Christ of Christ, other wise your article might contain some actual facts.
Those that repent and are baptized will be saved. That is God’s Word. Not evidently yours. I have read the Bible through eight times and continue to read it everyday. I search the scriptures to see if what others are saying is the truth.
If you do not believe some of the Bible, you really do not believe any of it.
Yours is a message of hate and ignorance.
Only those that obey God’s Word will obtain salvation. Will you be redeemed? I plan to be.
That is why it is Heaven, the unbelievers will not be there.
It's a shame you didn't devote more of your time to getting the facts straight and making a good faith effort to understand church of Christ doctrine and what the Bible says. Personally, I would be embarrassed to publicly misrepresent someone else's beliefs in an effort to create straw men for my own flawed arguments.
I'd be ashamed even further to receive the e-mails you have received in an effort to correct you and yet still maintain the deceitful arguments. Your website about the church of Christ appears to have the same credibility of the typical Michael Moore documentary.
I doubt you have any substantive arguments against the church of Christ that have merit. I doubt to an even greater degree that you have any arguments of merit that would negate the understanding of salvation prevalent in the church of Christ.
Fortunately for you (and for everyone else), if and when you are ready to accept the truth, Jesus will be there waiting.
Brandon
After a few e-mail volleys where Brandon send copies of our conversation to some of his CHOCD friends (who
amazingly agree with his perspective-LOL) , Brandon send this parting shot:
You're right they agree. It would be ridiculous if they didn't. You've thoroughly embarrassed yourself. You're still sending pictures and spouting cliches.
Let's just look at the comments you highlighted that I made.
All Christians should always seek to become better. You could do that by giving up false doctrine about baptism. I can do that by trying to get more people to accept the truth. The truth itself is often too abrasive for people, and like you have, they consider the truth a personal attack on their character.
I don't even know why you highlighted reasonable given the context I used it in. I've been very reasonable. You've been... something else.
Thanks for highlighting that I soundly defeated you also and that everyone else witnessed your crushing defeat. Thanks also for highlighting that the tactic just doesn't work in the 21st century.
Please tell me, since you've conceded defeat and continue to consider the truth a personal attack, what would it take to make you accept the truth?
And sorry, I'm not reading any more of your websites. Until you can defend the first one, there's no reason to move on to the second one.
As for promoting your other website, if you mean other people I e-mailed will go to that website - then I promoted it. But if you mean people will go there and send me replies talking about how nonsensical your website is - well, is that really the kind of promotion you want? In fact, I'll probably tell more people about your website. It's a great example of how some people are willing to trade the truth for a lie. And at this point, if you don't remove "baptismal regeneration" from your website - it is a lie. I have yet to see any proof that the churches of Christ have historically or predominately taught baptismal regeneration.
You could remove a lot of the other factually inaccurate statements on your website also, but I have a feeling that would be too much to ask.
And, wait, wait. Don't bother responding. I've already got it down already. "Brandon, you attacked my character. You made false statements. (Quote some stuff out of context and add another tangent.) You're just another legalist, lying, hypocrite, name-calling Church of Christ denominationalist. (More excuses about not debating doctrine and the meaning of Scripture."
Yeah, I've got the schtick down already.
Brandon
Brandon accidently send US a copy of an e-mail he sent to a former professor, seeking help for his abrasive personality:
Dr. Baird,
First of all, I saw you on the cover of the alumni publication. I barely recognized you. You looked really good. I hope everything is going well.
Second, I have a question about how to live as a Christian in general. I recently had a conversation with a guy who was attacking the church of Christ. I tried to get the guy to be reasonable, but he just considered everything I said to be a personal attack. My question is, what can I do whenever I have disputes of this nature that would help me have a less abrasive tone? I remember one time in one of your sermons you mentioned that as a kid you tried to memorize all the Scripture that you could.
I did the same thing - I was raised that way. And if you were raised in a way similar to how I was - or if you know people who were - then you know this story as well. I was raised that when someone confronted me about my beliefs to defend my beliefs well and leave no possible way that anyone else could think I was wrong. Even if the person arguing with me refuses to change their mind, that person walks away knowing that they were soundly defeated and anyone who witnessed the debate witnessed the crushing defeat. (Basically, I often use the Greg House, MD approach!)
That tactic just doesn't work in the 21st century. People don't want to be offended. How can I have conversations regarding disputes without making people feel attacked? Do you have any personal tips or any reading material that I could look into?
Thanks,
Brandon
Well, Brandon, me thinks that thou protesteth too much...
Robby Reviles...
I have to say that I have never read such silliness in all of my history on the web. I simply cannot spend the needed hours and go through your site, and the bible and dispel such nonsense.
I would imagine that the reason that you started this site on the web, as most "ex-church of Christ members" is because you were divorced uncripturally, or else you just love hearing 'dem bongos play (and not singing yourself, but watch 'da rock band show on Sunday morning).
Regardless of what you teach concerning musical instruments on your site, if you can honestly read the entire New Testament (not just the Roman Road to Salvation) and say that Baptism is not required for salvation, then you are reading a different bible than I am, and I truly feel sorry for you and the 100s perhaps 1000s that you have led astray.
Perhaps you can find a more constructive thing to do with your time, money and resources than publish such pap on the web.
Why don't you just delete all of your text on your site and say something along the lines of, "God is Love - he will let you do anything that you want." "The Bible really isn't anything special, it is simply some nice stories from centuries ago, that don't pertain to us -- oh, I'm sorry, except for the part that Jesus is our savior - ok, so forget all the rest." - "In fact, don't even bother with reading it - it may just tell us to do something that we are not comfortable with, or step on someone's toes -- or heck, even show us examples of how we should be saved, and why go through all of that - let's just say I believe and feel good!"
I truly feel sorry for your soul....
I have to sincerely apologize to you. Ijust read where you said that you are a messenger (under the "Their Tactics" section). That changes things for me!
If you truly are a messenger from God, then please, sign me up - can I follow your cult, er, I mean movement? Please sir - I am in need of restoration, and if you are a messenger from God, then you must be the one that I have been searching for all these years while I have been trapped in this awful, mean, hateful congregation of 200+ men, women and children (including my evil daughter of 5 years old) here in Frankfort, KY - please forgive me, and wave your hands at your computer screen or something.....
Come on......
will ya....
I need your power, messenger from God....
You must be the One I have been waiting for....
Please!
Rob Catron
Our response (if you want to call it one...):
Robby,
I simply cannot spend the needed hours and go through your e-mail, and the bible and dispel such nonsense.
